Seems to put the responsibility for God's people to listen to His Word on the pastors. A classic business interpretation of the Gospel. I think personal prayer by anyone concerned would be more appropriate.
Do you participate in the Concordia Plans and/or employment benefits, pastor? Does your church maintain P&L statement, a balance sheet, and a cash flow statement? Does your church have a constitution and bylaws?
The gospel is not magic beans, and the men who deliver it are not phantoms without need of a roof or a family that needs clothing, food, and medical care. Since we are not yet in the "realm of the divine" but in the real world, the business plan for pastors and the churches is clearly spelled out in 1 Corinthians 9:14 and 1 Timothy 5:18.
This is bold! Thoroughly researched, and includes threats to and disadvantages of the proposal, which is the correct way to make a sweeping proposal. It calls for systemic reform in the end, which is - from an "outside" source - a very high hill to climb; so the question is, who is designed or required to carry this to and through all levels of the system?
I could go on for hours, but the main problem I see is that this group is using the "conversation" as an opportunity to sell their latest plan; never considering the opposite point of view. I have never seen any opposing concerns being addressed (I have voiced them).
It is Christ's church, and this all seems to be a desire for us to "fix it" for Him. Why not get back to the primary role of the Office of Ministry by faithfully teaching and preaching and rightfully administering the Sacraments?
Why don't we try a little church discipline first before watering down the pastors formation?
The younger generations are looking for the everlasting and unchanging that they can rely on. Lutheranism provides that in it's faithfulness to Scripture.
Im pretty sure if we stick to that, His church will be fine.
This collective has been "going their own way" for awhile now. The Seminaries have clearly stated their position in opposition to their alternate routes, yet they continue to try different ways to get Synod to change their model of pastoral formation and placement.
I have made the suggestion directly, to the group, and it was ignored (hence, my second comment above).
You are correct, the Scripture does say that the pastor should "...get their living by the gospel.", but where does it say anything about maximizing returns? It sets no standard for that living.
Nobody was implying magic beans are involved.
How did Paul bring about a riot in Ephasus (Acts19)? Answer: He didn't.
God's Word did. Paul faithfully delivered the Word, and all of the work was completed by God's Word.
There is nothing in this proposal about getting back to faithfully delivering the Word and rightfully administering the Sacraments.
What was the direction to the Disciples when they encountered those who still did not believe? Water it down until it was acceptable to what the culture deemed "relevant" (in order to ensure their living wage)? I think not.
I have spoken to many pastors who, after 4 years of being immersed in their formation amongst the finest theologians felt they were NOT YET prepared to go amongst the harvest with such a massive responsibility. What is our answer? "Let's do it online." or "Allow them to be formed amongst the ELCA."
It is only with the formation of Pastors in that setting that we will get back to what was so "successful" for Paul. It is not easy, but it is simple.
Preach and teach the Word of God faithfully and rightfully administer the Sacraments. Have faith that his Word will do exactly what he intends for it to do.
PS- Where, in the proposal, is the word of encouragement for pastors to encourage youth to begin in the ministry? This is another area where I think we could improve but is not addressed.
Seems to put the responsibility for God's people to listen to His Word on the pastors. A classic business interpretation of the Gospel. I think personal prayer by anyone concerned would be more appropriate.
Do you participate in the Concordia Plans and/or employment benefits, pastor? Does your church maintain P&L statement, a balance sheet, and a cash flow statement? Does your church have a constitution and bylaws?
Is that the reason pastors are pastors, for the "employment benefits"?
What is the proper cost of saving souls, Author?
What is the ROI on faithfully preaching the gospel and rightfully administering the sacraments?
How costly is it to declare absolution to burdened consciences in the name of Christ?
What is the current rate for the peace of Christ being declared to the saints?
All worldly business models fall short in the realm of the divine.
The gospel is not magic beans, and the men who deliver it are not phantoms without need of a roof or a family that needs clothing, food, and medical care. Since we are not yet in the "realm of the divine" but in the real world, the business plan for pastors and the churches is clearly spelled out in 1 Corinthians 9:14 and 1 Timothy 5:18.
On a different note, which pastor is in need of a roof, food, or medical care and cannot receive it?
Please forward the name(s) to me and I will see what we can do to help them out.
Without names, this is a strawman argument and detracts from the merits of their plan.
This is bold! Thoroughly researched, and includes threats to and disadvantages of the proposal, which is the correct way to make a sweeping proposal. It calls for systemic reform in the end, which is - from an "outside" source - a very high hill to climb; so the question is, who is designed or required to carry this to and through all levels of the system?
I love this. I wish I could help more but I am pretty occupied with my own congregation so I wish you Godspeed!
This is a great business plan, no doubt.
I could go on for hours, but the main problem I see is that this group is using the "conversation" as an opportunity to sell their latest plan; never considering the opposite point of view. I have never seen any opposing concerns being addressed (I have voiced them).
It is Christ's church, and this all seems to be a desire for us to "fix it" for Him. Why not get back to the primary role of the Office of Ministry by faithfully teaching and preaching and rightfully administering the Sacraments?
Why don't we try a little church discipline first before watering down the pastors formation?
The younger generations are looking for the everlasting and unchanging that they can rely on. Lutheranism provides that in it's faithfulness to Scripture.
Im pretty sure if we stick to that, His church will be fine.
My humble opinion...
Which group is selling anything, and which group is buying anything?
This collective has been "going their own way" for awhile now. The Seminaries have clearly stated their position in opposition to their alternate routes, yet they continue to try different ways to get Synod to change their model of pastoral formation and placement.
I have made the suggestion directly, to the group, and it was ignored (hence, my second comment above).
You are correct, the Scripture does say that the pastor should "...get their living by the gospel.", but where does it say anything about maximizing returns? It sets no standard for that living.
Nobody was implying magic beans are involved.
How did Paul bring about a riot in Ephasus (Acts19)? Answer: He didn't.
God's Word did. Paul faithfully delivered the Word, and all of the work was completed by God's Word.
There is nothing in this proposal about getting back to faithfully delivering the Word and rightfully administering the Sacraments.
What was the direction to the Disciples when they encountered those who still did not believe? Water it down until it was acceptable to what the culture deemed "relevant" (in order to ensure their living wage)? I think not.
I have spoken to many pastors who, after 4 years of being immersed in their formation amongst the finest theologians felt they were NOT YET prepared to go amongst the harvest with such a massive responsibility. What is our answer? "Let's do it online." or "Allow them to be formed amongst the ELCA."
It is only with the formation of Pastors in that setting that we will get back to what was so "successful" for Paul. It is not easy, but it is simple.
Preach and teach the Word of God faithfully and rightfully administer the Sacraments. Have faith that his Word will do exactly what he intends for it to do.
PS- Where, in the proposal, is the word of encouragement for pastors to encourage youth to begin in the ministry? This is another area where I think we could improve but is not addressed.