Meh. I’m a Lutheran convert (raised fundamentalist Baptist; non-denom in early adulthood). I think his critique about the elevator pitch is way overblown.
First, how did people known how to become Christian during the first 1800 years of the New Covenant before the advent of revivalism and the four spiritual laws?
Second, Lutherans actually have the very best answer to that question: “Jesus forgave your sins on the cross and he gives you that forgiveness in so many ways: Baptism, Absolution, preaching, and the Lord’s Supper.” You can say that to someone before the elevator doors even close.
Third, the Baptist “elevator pitch” may have the guise of simplicity, but it leaves chaos in its wake. When everything hinges on my sincerity, then nothing is ever simple or certain.
I was taught the “simple” answer growing up, but I was never at peace until I received the true answer that God’s gift comes to me “extra nos.”
Paul Kretzmann published a manual in 1926 called: "While It Is Day: A Manual for Soul-Winners." It may be advisable for us to dust it off and take a look at it.
"The Methodist Church did not come into existence until a century after the establishment of the first Lutheran congregations in America. And yet, this denomination has more than twice as many members in our country as all Lutheran bodies put together. The Baptists began work in our country in 1636, or at about the same time that Lutheran preaching was established on the Delaware. Yet the Baptists, too, are much stronger than the combined Lutheran bodies of our country....
The explanation is to be found, at least in part, in the fact that that part of the truth which was still held by these two church bodies was spread with great zeal by laymen connected with these denominations. And one of their chief agencies in establishing new churches and in doing Home Mission work was the Sunday-school... [It] quickly became the nucleus of a congregation, for preaching was invariably introduced at the earliest opportunity."
On February 25, 2016, President Matthew C. Harrison asked the CTCR: “Are the Word of God and the saving Gospel effective only when spoken by a pastor?”
In their response (https://web.archive.org/web/20160608062009/http://www.lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=4173), the CTCR replied: “Our answer is No. The Scriptures are replete with examples of Christian men and women—lay people—who share the saving truths of God's Word with others.” The CTCR’s answer goes on to include numerous excerpts “from Scripture, the Confessions, Walther, and Luther suffice to corroborate our opinion that the Word of God and the saving Gospel are effective when spoken by any member of the royal priesthood-man, woman, or child.”
President Harrison also asked a second question: “Do the Scriptures, Lutheran Confessions and the public doctrine of the LCMS (particularly Walther's "Church and Office") allow laymen to carry out the specific functions of the pastoral office (public absolution, public preaching and administration of the sacraments in the divine service) under the sole proviso that this is done "under the oversight of a pastor"?
The CTCR responded: “Again, our answer is No…. Teachings about the efficacy of the Word and the royal priesthood have led some Christians to misunderstand the need for or to denigrate the office of the public ministry….
"This office (the office of public ministry, the preaching office, the pastoral office) is not mere
convenience for the church. It is not optional, or a choice for a church to accept or reject based
on human wisdom or whimsy. It is commanded in Scripture-that is, the office is God's
institution, not man's.”
The CTCR’s answer goes on to include numerous excerpts from Scripture, the Confessions, Walther, and Luther suffice to substantiate their position.
This morning, I listened to Matt Whitman's "On The Line" interview/discussion, all of it, because I had the time.
I first came across Whitman I liked him because his podcast content was unique; he interviews various church leaders I'd likely never talk to, and by giving them opportunity to share their perspective of why and how their denomination believes, teaches, and practices what it does, his audience [including me] can hear from an 'insider'. I like Whitman's style, he is honest and smart.
I liked his honesty in how he assessed the LCMS. Obviously, not being a confessional Lutheran, he doesn't get our theology, like close[d] Communion, but I don't expect him to. He gave us a glowing review for our ckbfessionsl theology and liturgical practice, that we know our own 'stuff'. BUT he made a great point [critique] about one of our flaws: We are not apt to handle "soft ball" opportunities. When someone might ask, 'How do I become a Christian?', we might give a more cerebral 'soteriological' framework first, instead of speaking to the person as a person. I believe he nailed it on the point. Whereas we Lutherans know, God saves and not us, and that we don't apply a 'Romans Road' formula like Baptists and lead a prayer for someone inquiring to 'ask Jesus into [their] heart' or do 'altar calls', we seen to be shy to answer easy questions because we don't want to be wrong theologically. We can do better. Even at assimilation of new Christians into the church, we seem to lack what a more personable approach. We have the true evangelical Catholic goods: Word and Sacrament, Confessions, Law and Gospel, liturgy, hynmology, etc.; we need change nothing regarding those [maybe more boldly admit we're "Catholic", and add thurible and bells in it Mass], but we need to be more comfortable with outwardly loving non-Lutherans in their catechesis into Christ's "family". Named our best ambassador, spokesman as Pastor Will Weeden; Whitman's interview with him was so good, he did two!
None of this matters anyway, because they don’t even have a system that can determine the canon of the NT. To go even deeper, they don’t have a system to deal with passages being added and subtracted to the Gospels.
Meh. I’m a Lutheran convert (raised fundamentalist Baptist; non-denom in early adulthood). I think his critique about the elevator pitch is way overblown.
First, how did people known how to become Christian during the first 1800 years of the New Covenant before the advent of revivalism and the four spiritual laws?
Second, Lutherans actually have the very best answer to that question: “Jesus forgave your sins on the cross and he gives you that forgiveness in so many ways: Baptism, Absolution, preaching, and the Lord’s Supper.” You can say that to someone before the elevator doors even close.
Third, the Baptist “elevator pitch” may have the guise of simplicity, but it leaves chaos in its wake. When everything hinges on my sincerity, then nothing is ever simple or certain.
I was taught the “simple” answer growing up, but I was never at peace until I received the true answer that God’s gift comes to me “extra nos.”
Your elevator pitch will not lay a finger on a single soul that was not raised in a Confessional body.
The Word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword. I’m pretty sure the Holy Spirit can manage.
Oof. Pastor, that is not becoming. If you truly believe that, then your church has no need of a pastor.
It is not becoming to believe that the Holy Spirit creates faith in the heart when the gospel is proclaimed?
https://biblehub.com/kjv/romans/10-14.htm
I don't think we're having the same conversation.
I usually find that I agree with you, but here it comes across like you think you can sell the word of God better than God.
If humans are to avoid any perception of selling the Word of God better than God, do we even need pastors?
Paul Kretzmann published a manual in 1926 called: "While It Is Day: A Manual for Soul-Winners." It may be advisable for us to dust it off and take a look at it.
"The Methodist Church did not come into existence until a century after the establishment of the first Lutheran congregations in America. And yet, this denomination has more than twice as many members in our country as all Lutheran bodies put together. The Baptists began work in our country in 1636, or at about the same time that Lutheran preaching was established on the Delaware. Yet the Baptists, too, are much stronger than the combined Lutheran bodies of our country....
The explanation is to be found, at least in part, in the fact that that part of the truth which was still held by these two church bodies was spread with great zeal by laymen connected with these denominations. And one of their chief agencies in establishing new churches and in doing Home Mission work was the Sunday-school... [It] quickly became the nucleus of a congregation, for preaching was invariably introduced at the earliest opportunity."
Fascinating, thanks.
On February 25, 2016, President Matthew C. Harrison asked the CTCR: “Are the Word of God and the saving Gospel effective only when spoken by a pastor?”
In their response (https://web.archive.org/web/20160608062009/http://www.lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=4173), the CTCR replied: “Our answer is No. The Scriptures are replete with examples of Christian men and women—lay people—who share the saving truths of God's Word with others.” The CTCR’s answer goes on to include numerous excerpts “from Scripture, the Confessions, Walther, and Luther suffice to corroborate our opinion that the Word of God and the saving Gospel are effective when spoken by any member of the royal priesthood-man, woman, or child.”
President Harrison also asked a second question: “Do the Scriptures, Lutheran Confessions and the public doctrine of the LCMS (particularly Walther's "Church and Office") allow laymen to carry out the specific functions of the pastoral office (public absolution, public preaching and administration of the sacraments in the divine service) under the sole proviso that this is done "under the oversight of a pastor"?
The CTCR responded: “Again, our answer is No…. Teachings about the efficacy of the Word and the royal priesthood have led some Christians to misunderstand the need for or to denigrate the office of the public ministry….
"This office (the office of public ministry, the preaching office, the pastoral office) is not mere
convenience for the church. It is not optional, or a choice for a church to accept or reject based
on human wisdom or whimsy. It is commanded in Scripture-that is, the office is God's
institution, not man's.”
The CTCR’s answer goes on to include numerous excerpts from Scripture, the Confessions, Walther, and Luther suffice to substantiate their position.
This morning, I listened to Matt Whitman's "On The Line" interview/discussion, all of it, because I had the time.
I first came across Whitman I liked him because his podcast content was unique; he interviews various church leaders I'd likely never talk to, and by giving them opportunity to share their perspective of why and how their denomination believes, teaches, and practices what it does, his audience [including me] can hear from an 'insider'. I like Whitman's style, he is honest and smart.
I liked his honesty in how he assessed the LCMS. Obviously, not being a confessional Lutheran, he doesn't get our theology, like close[d] Communion, but I don't expect him to. He gave us a glowing review for our ckbfessionsl theology and liturgical practice, that we know our own 'stuff'. BUT he made a great point [critique] about one of our flaws: We are not apt to handle "soft ball" opportunities. When someone might ask, 'How do I become a Christian?', we might give a more cerebral 'soteriological' framework first, instead of speaking to the person as a person. I believe he nailed it on the point. Whereas we Lutherans know, God saves and not us, and that we don't apply a 'Romans Road' formula like Baptists and lead a prayer for someone inquiring to 'ask Jesus into [their] heart' or do 'altar calls', we seen to be shy to answer easy questions because we don't want to be wrong theologically. We can do better. Even at assimilation of new Christians into the church, we seem to lack what a more personable approach. We have the true evangelical Catholic goods: Word and Sacrament, Confessions, Law and Gospel, liturgy, hynmology, etc.; we need change nothing regarding those [maybe more boldly admit we're "Catholic", and add thurible and bells in it Mass], but we need to be more comfortable with outwardly loving non-Lutherans in their catechesis into Christ's "family". Named our best ambassador, spokesman as Pastor Will Weeden; Whitman's interview with him was so good, he did two!
None of this matters anyway, because they don’t even have a system that can determine the canon of the NT. To go even deeper, they don’t have a system to deal with passages being added and subtracted to the Gospels.