I'm not trying to deceive. Scholastics come off as pedantic. You don't need to be institutionalized to see it. If Nathan has been talking about this for 10 years, the obsession should be turned elsewhere. A person spending time meticulously pointing out flaws, you become like Luther at confession. We can go to Acts 5:38-39 and agree with Gamaliel on this subject.
“If Nathan has been talking about this for 10 years, the obsession should be turned elsewhere. A person spending time meticulously pointing out flaws, you become like Luther at confession.”
On the contrary, the insidious and conniving Fake Lutherans who lie about Luther and the Bible should go away. Then I would not need to bother you. Frankly, I wish others with more clout and prestige would take up the fight and get the job done. Hopefully, God will raise up such a leader among us, our Elijah or Jehu or Josiah who can eliminate the false prophets.
Heresies must always be fought against in the church, and "there must be divisions among you to show which of you has God's approval”.
I don't understand your comment. How is this "antinomialism?" Recognizing that "apart from Me you can do nothing," and that the "good works that glorify the Father" are "the fruit of the Spirit" does not make one "antinomian." It is the confession that "Christ in you" IS "the hope of glory."
My article says that men like Keith have a false doctrine of sanctification. They are completely ignoring or denying scripture, Luther, and the Lutheran confessions. At the very least, novel doctrines can facilitate antinomianism in the church and beyond. Men like Keith heavily promote men like Steve Paulson, who denies traditional understandings of God's law and says that Christ committed his own personal sin. This cannot stand.
Then you are attacking the man, not the teaching. What does Article III of the Creed mean in relation to the subject of sanctification? My teachings flow from that.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, one holy Christian church, the community of the saints, forgiveness of sins, resurrection of the flesh, and eternal life. Amen.
[6] What is this? Answer:
I believe that by my own understanding or strength I cannot believe in Jesus Christ my Lord or come to him, but instead the Holy Spirit has called me through the gospel, enlightened me with his gifts, made me holy and kept me in the true faith, just as he calls, gathers, enlightens, and makes holy the whole Christian church on earth and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one common, true faith. Daily in this Christian church the Holy Spirit abundantly forgives all sins—mine and those of all believers. On the Last Day the Holy Spirit will raise me and all the dead and will give to me and all believers in Christ eternal life. This is most certainly true.
Robert Kolb, Timothy J. Wengert, and Charles P. Arand, The Book of Concord: The Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church (Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, 2000), 355–356.
Please explain this Article in terms of sanctification by the Spirit.
This article in the creed is not in dispute. My article addresses regeneration/justification and sanctification appropriately. Justification and sanctification are two distinct things, even if they occur simultaneously in time. This is covered in the article, Lutheranism 101.
My article was about false teaching. If if "hits" somebody , a man, then so be it. The false teaching cannot stand. Why are you saying that I am attacking the man?
"“...the simul justus et peccator is looking at the Christian from the outside as he stands before God: his standing as far as the law. Old Adam and New Man refer to the inner state of man: What is going on inside of him…"
St. Paul says it differently - 2Cor. 4:16 "So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day."
We are being renewed from the inside out not the outside in. That means that the new man must always act through the old man in all his external works. Hence the 3rd function of the Law as the self-discipline of the Christian, according to article VI of the Formula.
Get the "simul" right and you get the 3rd function of the Law right.
The apostle Paul is not speaking of the dichotomy of soul and body. This is a common misunderstanding. Rather, this is elsewhere he calls “flesh” and “spirit” in the way of our Lord’s words to NIcodemus that “flesh gives birth to flesh, and the Spirit gives birth to spirit.” “Body and soul” both pertain to the adamic flesh born of the flesh. In “inner man” is Christ who lives in us who renews us from the inside out. This is precisely why one cannot tell a Christian from an unbeliever from outward appearance.
Thanks for the conversation. While we cannot know an unbeliever from a believer externally, we also need to say that the Apostle Paul, for example, can be confident that the spirit of God dwells in Timothy. Of course, he has good reasons for this, even if he does not have absolute epistemic certainty.
“Man should not operate according to the flesh, which “is human existence opposed to the Holy Spirit… cooperat[ing] with the devil and the world in opposing God and His will”.[1] Instead, man should operate according to the spirit, which is “that part of human existence belonging to God” that “understands itself as sinner justified before God”[2] and has desires in accordance with God’s eternal will[3]. It is true that even the good actions of Christians, driven by good and godly desires, are tainted with sin. And yet, such imperfection is covered by Christ’s blood in His gift of new creation. For even as our sinful nature or flesh remains active in the Christian, he, as a new creation in Christ, does not want, identify with, or even want to be associated with the flesh and its temptations (Romans 7).”
Here is a comment from my pastor again, whose quote you initially were questioning:
“Cwirla is not wrong. But I would suggest that more needs to be said in this regard. For although the Christian's life is indeed hidden with Christ in God, we remain outwardly known by our fruits. And although renewed "from the inside out", we are also renewed "from the outside in," as we hear the Word of God through ears, and are baptized with water applied to bodies, and received the body and blood of Christ in, with and under bread and wine in our mouths. The newness of life which results certainly affects our bodies. So there is a type of genus apotelesmaticum which does occur in our washing, regeneration and renewing (i.e. it occurs not simply spiritually, but physically). Here the death of Moses may be informative. Or even the reception into heaven of Elijah. The fact that such renewal is not perfectly realized physically in this life does not mean it does not occur in some way. But again, more needs to be said. For the Holy Spirit as well is working not just spiritually, but physically, as He does in creation as well. Good topic.”
Funny that you should mention baseball, Mr. Yankee Stadium.
Knocked one out of the park, Ronert!
I find nothing good concerning "scholastics" in the Book of Concord, so why are scholastic Lutherans coming out of the woodwork?
This is apropos of... what? What part of the article was "scholastic"?
Umm, plenty. category errors, critical analysis, etc.
You're equivocating. When the Book of Concord criticizes "the scholastics" it means Late Medieval Theological Aristotelianism, not "logical thought."
I'm not trying to deceive. Scholastics come off as pedantic. You don't need to be institutionalized to see it. If Nathan has been talking about this for 10 years, the obsession should be turned elsewhere. A person spending time meticulously pointing out flaws, you become like Luther at confession. We can go to Acts 5:38-39 and agree with Gamaliel on this subject.
Curt,
Are you LCMS? AALC?
“If Nathan has been talking about this for 10 years, the obsession should be turned elsewhere. A person spending time meticulously pointing out flaws, you become like Luther at confession.”
On the contrary, the insidious and conniving Fake Lutherans who lie about Luther and the Bible should go away. Then I would not need to bother you. Frankly, I wish others with more clout and prestige would take up the fight and get the job done. Hopefully, God will raise up such a leader among us, our Elijah or Jehu or Josiah who can eliminate the false prophets.
Heresies must always be fought against in the church, and "there must be divisions among you to show which of you has God's approval”.
+Nathan
This is probably the number 1 problem in Lutherism, since it quite succesfully baptizes Nihilism.
The name I fashioned for it, rather than the vague Radical, and deservedly perjorative 'Fake'.
I call it Total Monergism, because they drag Monergism from appropriate doctrines to cover the totality of life, as they would surely acclaim.
We once had a pastor who taught this exact version of antinomianism. He was a big fan of a famous name associated with 1517.
I don't understand your comment. How is this "antinomialism?" Recognizing that "apart from Me you can do nothing," and that the "good works that glorify the Father" are "the fruit of the Spirit" does not make one "antinomian." It is the confession that "Christ in you" IS "the hope of glory."
My article says that men like Keith have a false doctrine of sanctification. They are completely ignoring or denying scripture, Luther, and the Lutheran confessions. At the very least, novel doctrines can facilitate antinomianism in the church and beyond. Men like Keith heavily promote men like Steve Paulson, who denies traditional understandings of God's law and says that Christ committed his own personal sin. This cannot stand.
Then you are attacking the man, not the teaching. What does Article III of the Creed mean in relation to the subject of sanctification? My teachings flow from that.
I do not understand what you're getting at.
The Third Article: On Being Made Holy
I believe in the Holy Spirit, one holy Christian church, the community of the saints, forgiveness of sins, resurrection of the flesh, and eternal life. Amen.
[6] What is this? Answer:
I believe that by my own understanding or strength I cannot believe in Jesus Christ my Lord or come to him, but instead the Holy Spirit has called me through the gospel, enlightened me with his gifts, made me holy and kept me in the true faith, just as he calls, gathers, enlightens, and makes holy the whole Christian church on earth and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one common, true faith. Daily in this Christian church the Holy Spirit abundantly forgives all sins—mine and those of all believers. On the Last Day the Holy Spirit will raise me and all the dead and will give to me and all believers in Christ eternal life. This is most certainly true.
Robert Kolb, Timothy J. Wengert, and Charles P. Arand, The Book of Concord: The Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church (Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, 2000), 355–356.
Please explain this Article in terms of sanctification by the Spirit.
This article in the creed is not in dispute. My article addresses regeneration/justification and sanctification appropriately. Justification and sanctification are two distinct things, even if they occur simultaneously in time. This is covered in the article, Lutheranism 101.
My article was about false teaching. If if "hits" somebody , a man, then so be it. The false teaching cannot stand. Why are you saying that I am attacking the man?
"“...the simul justus et peccator is looking at the Christian from the outside as he stands before God: his standing as far as the law. Old Adam and New Man refer to the inner state of man: What is going on inside of him…"
St. Paul says it differently - 2Cor. 4:16 "So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day."
We are being renewed from the inside out not the outside in. That means that the new man must always act through the old man in all his external works. Hence the 3rd function of the Law as the self-discipline of the Christian, according to article VI of the Formula.
Get the "simul" right and you get the 3rd function of the Law right.
The old Adam and new man are not necessarily synonymous with the outer and inner self.
The new man is not simply our soul and the old Adam our body.
The apostle Paul is not speaking of the dichotomy of soul and body. This is a common misunderstanding. Rather, this is elsewhere he calls “flesh” and “spirit” in the way of our Lord’s words to NIcodemus that “flesh gives birth to flesh, and the Spirit gives birth to spirit.” “Body and soul” both pertain to the adamic flesh born of the flesh. In “inner man” is Christ who lives in us who renews us from the inside out. This is precisely why one cannot tell a Christian from an unbeliever from outward appearance.
Pastor Cwirla,
Thanks for the conversation. While we cannot know an unbeliever from a believer externally, we also need to say that the Apostle Paul, for example, can be confident that the spirit of God dwells in Timothy. Of course, he has good reasons for this, even if he does not have absolute epistemic certainty.
“….this is elsewhere he calls ‘flesh’ and ‘spirit’”. Yes, as I said in a paper here (https://infanttheology.wordpress.com/2024/12/24/the-end-of-temptation-in-gods-good-creation-entire-article/), which you might find interesting given how it pertains to our current discussion:
“Man should not operate according to the flesh, which “is human existence opposed to the Holy Spirit… cooperat[ing] with the devil and the world in opposing God and His will”.[1] Instead, man should operate according to the spirit, which is “that part of human existence belonging to God” that “understands itself as sinner justified before God”[2] and has desires in accordance with God’s eternal will[3]. It is true that even the good actions of Christians, driven by good and godly desires, are tainted with sin. And yet, such imperfection is covered by Christ’s blood in His gift of new creation. For even as our sinful nature or flesh remains active in the Christian, he, as a new creation in Christ, does not want, identify with, or even want to be associated with the flesh and its temptations (Romans 7).”
Here is a comment from my pastor again, whose quote you initially were questioning:
“Cwirla is not wrong. But I would suggest that more needs to be said in this regard. For although the Christian's life is indeed hidden with Christ in God, we remain outwardly known by our fruits. And although renewed "from the inside out", we are also renewed "from the outside in," as we hear the Word of God through ears, and are baptized with water applied to bodies, and received the body and blood of Christ in, with and under bread and wine in our mouths. The newness of life which results certainly affects our bodies. So there is a type of genus apotelesmaticum which does occur in our washing, regeneration and renewing (i.e. it occurs not simply spiritually, but physically). Here the death of Moses may be informative. Or even the reception into heaven of Elijah. The fact that such renewal is not perfectly realized physically in this life does not mean it does not occur in some way. But again, more needs to be said. For the Holy Spirit as well is working not just spiritually, but physically, as He does in creation as well. Good topic.”
+Nathan