I understand what you are saying, Chris. However, Lutherans and Christians are born sinners. They are redeemed by the precious body and blood of our Lord Jesus through baptism, hearing the Word of Truth, and taking Holy Communion.
The only temporal promise Christ gave to Christians is that they would suffer and be persecuted. We have had it very easy by every comparison to history. So, in one sense, we are born to lose because victory here is meaningless and the grandest scheme.
That does not mean we are free to keep our sleeves rolled down and ignore what is obviously going on to reduce the Christian church to a husk. So, we recognize, we realize, we fight.
As Lutherans, we have distinctions, such as the uses of the Law, but several Lutheran theologians like to opine and are comfortable in abstractions, so they reject the concrete applications, such as the third use in the life of a Christian and the first use in the life of a nation, so they feel satisfied with their abstract virtues based on their erroneous conclusions and false teachings.
Where do we draw the line in submission and obedience to the government? The usual Romans 13 answer is that as long as the government is not asking us to do something evil, we should comply with their mandates. But what about the constant governmental intrusion into our personal lives and liberty? Where can one in good conscience draw the line? I’ve been asking this question for a long time and haven’t been able to draw any concrete conclusions from Scripture.
This is a great question and it occupies the thoughts of serious Christians because we are being pinched on all sides. Overall, I think Christians are very concerned to honor authority and avoid any perception that they will turn to violence.
There are some blanket instances where it is easy to draw the line. For example, in Britain it is illegal to pray silently in the vicinity of an Abortion clinic. That is evil and must be opposed. However, if it is not your vocation to pray at abortion clinics, then don't go looking to get arrested by praying at an abortion clinic. If you have young children and a wife, then you have deprived them of your protection to make a statement that was not yours to make at that time.
Most situations are not black and white, but you can discern from Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions where the lines are that pertain you and your family. For example, if the public school is sexualizing your children, then you resist and oppose by removing your kids from the deviant environment. If your employer requires you to swear an oath to anything that opposes God, then it's time to find new employment. If your pastor is teaching strange doctrines, then it's time to find a new church. If your friend has a habit of getting baked, then it's time to find help for him and avoid situations where he feels compelled to alter his state of consciousness.
Ultimately, this is what our pastors for for. Take your concerns to him and he will help you to discern what is Godly and appropriate for you and your family.
The error is insisting that the only kinds of Trump criticism comes in the form of TDS or Never-Trumpism, two ideologies I reject in toto.
The perpetuation of this error is insidious and pernicious: convincing yourself and your people that the only opposition you have is from wicked or insane people, or else weak-hearted, and that Trump and his company are unequivocally a net good for yourself and your people, leads to a massive vulnerability to group deception and taking of advantage and leading of marches down self-destructive paths.
The second error is insisting that any discussion of Trump, or any criticism of Trump, means also endorsing Harris.
Framing all political discussion as a Red vs. Blue football match leaves everyone's minds captive to the regime we oppose.
I can call voting Harris a sin while still raising the question of whether the Trumpian movement was a Trojan horse. I don't care whether anyone voted for Trump or not: he was going to be selected either way, just as Biden was selected over the duly elected Trump in 2020.
It's funny because the levels and lengths of Christians making apologies for abortionism and Zionism would not have been allowed in the recent past. It used to be cool to point out weaknesses in these areas. Now it's a sign of TDS apparently.
Trump may as well be a more ethical politician than anyone else. That's not why he's suspect. He's generally suspect for the exact opposite reason those with TDS or Never-Trumpism state. Never-Trumpers are usually Zionists themselves, and usually weak on anti-abortionism themselves.
Has anyone seriously listened to Rogan? He's acclaimed as non-lying, non-monied, new media. That claim is ridiculous. Listen to what he says, the lines he hammers, the flow of the programming. He's a government spokesman, as is Musk.
Not in the slightest. The Zionism stuff mainly got highlighted after the election. Frankly I was a little surprised by it; I wasn't expecting the blatancy.
Trump's COVID endorsement was all I needed; the rest is gravy. But I've been dismissed since then by all my Christian friends. Believe the story given. We Christians see through the lies; we discern all truth. Trump will fix it, and you're the problem if you don't get on this train.
Why is this about the election anyway? Is that what the original article was about? I thought you were just talking about the political domain in general: "Christians are far too eager to give up the public square for the sake of virtue signalling and unattainable perfection."
If you don't vote Trump, you're morally weak, or dangerous, because virtue-signaling.
Why is this about the election? Was Biden duly elected? Was Harris a serious candidate? Were you afraid she was going to be allowed to be chosen?
Can Christians engage the public square in more ways than voting silently?
Do I have to vote Trump and endorse him every waking moment and defend him from all mean comments just to work with other sinners like me to accomplish political goals? Who says not voting Trump means that I must sit in my basement doing nothing, or that it means that all political compromise is impossible or evil?
My case in point. This podcast is a very small, local Fort Wayne outlet, owned by a very opaque system of corporations. Producer Federated Media also carries Mark Levin, but otherwise hosts small potatoes, and effectively works local ad money. But her programming, and probably most of the money, is coming from the top. She's full-on "never fear libtard, Trump is actually a liberal with a right-wing paint-job. I'm a Christian myself, but I support this good-looking man." All 3 (thought there was 4?) of the short segments take this tack. I never heard of this podcast before a week ago. I thought it was cool to hear a non-leftist local outlet. But the conservatism is all schtick. Antichristian money will pay Christians anything to market the politically correct Red vs. Blue story. Trumpianism is the new Red. The complainers are just worried about their income, but given enough time they'll be settled, in or out of the public eye.
Never thought we'd be in the universe where Todd Wilken converts from playing with Never-Trumperism to a standard Trump apologia.
He's the target audience. He's moved exactly where he was supposed to go. It was an 8-year (and beyond) program.
He has all the right crises of conscience. But he's come out on the right side, because he's not stupid. You can't run weak ops on actual Christians. It takes a very very long time.
Do you see what's happening? Never-Trumpism was largely an elite aesthetic. It's trickled down now, but at first it was a sign of weak leadership / cowardice, something the laypeople can't really be judged on. The lay momentum was all Trump. This was fine and good, since the novelty made it impossible to know what was up unless you had done prior research or were paying attention to where he and others came from. And Trump supporters being attacked was wrong. Never-Trump attacks on Trump were a proxy for attacks on Trump supporters, who were quite Christian. (But then Trump got a lot of them put in jail in payment for their support in '21.) '16 to '24 was a deliberate revealing and unravelling. So much more has been made visible. After Trump pacified and placated opposition to COVID, most of the op has been let out. It's now politically correct to declare the media "lying and crazy" and Fauci a "monster". All true statements that were nonetheless true before it was sanctioned rhetoric. But now that so much is laid out on the table for even the laypeople to see, some people have had some room to think about Trump as a whole. Some things still haven't gone away, and ever since Never-Trumpism became popular, the laypeople are now more frequently partaking of its ideas. And on cue, the Trump train is ready to roll right over them. The elites can take care of themselves; the laypeople cannot (they need a shepherd, a real one).
What the right spent years calling the left, they are now themselves. (As it pertains to the sanctioned parties.) The left was doing it (lying, etc.) then by commission. The right now by omission. To state as news something that was exposed 8 years ago is itself the real disengagement.
The choice of the Trump-Bible-Church photo is ironic, considering that was the day he sold his own people to the feds. It's politically correct to point out the agent provocateurs, but if Trump was not in the know and cared about his own fans, he'd have hit that line hard and never stopped. Trump fans take so many bullets for their man, rather than the other way around. (Just a scratch...)
I wonder how many people in that town voted for Trump hehe
The other thing usually not mentioned is how the American people themselves are abortionist. They voted more for abortion than for Trump. Don't need to convince Americans to "lower their standards" when they already seem convinced!
Trump led pro-life movement into a climax with no payoff. The fever pitch of removing Roe v. Wade after 50 years followed with a throwing to the wolves. It's not the laxity, it's the deception and manipulation. Vance too. Rogan (media) too. It was settled. Trump spoke at March for Life for first President appearance ever, cancelled the next one with COVID, knocked Roe, then declared the issue done and final forever: STATES ONLY. When this is the one issue of all that would most fit federal action. It's a show to lead and string along. Rhetorical game. Kayfabe, with the most interesting heels and faces of all.
I understand what you are saying, Chris. However, Lutherans and Christians are born sinners. They are redeemed by the precious body and blood of our Lord Jesus through baptism, hearing the Word of Truth, and taking Holy Communion.
The only temporal promise Christ gave to Christians is that they would suffer and be persecuted. We have had it very easy by every comparison to history. So, in one sense, we are born to lose because victory here is meaningless and the grandest scheme.
That does not mean we are free to keep our sleeves rolled down and ignore what is obviously going on to reduce the Christian church to a husk. So, we recognize, we realize, we fight.
As Lutherans, we have distinctions, such as the uses of the Law, but several Lutheran theologians like to opine and are comfortable in abstractions, so they reject the concrete applications, such as the third use in the life of a Christian and the first use in the life of a nation, so they feel satisfied with their abstract virtues based on their erroneous conclusions and false teachings.
Where do we draw the line in submission and obedience to the government? The usual Romans 13 answer is that as long as the government is not asking us to do something evil, we should comply with their mandates. But what about the constant governmental intrusion into our personal lives and liberty? Where can one in good conscience draw the line? I’ve been asking this question for a long time and haven’t been able to draw any concrete conclusions from Scripture.
This is a great question and it occupies the thoughts of serious Christians because we are being pinched on all sides. Overall, I think Christians are very concerned to honor authority and avoid any perception that they will turn to violence.
There are some blanket instances where it is easy to draw the line. For example, in Britain it is illegal to pray silently in the vicinity of an Abortion clinic. That is evil and must be opposed. However, if it is not your vocation to pray at abortion clinics, then don't go looking to get arrested by praying at an abortion clinic. If you have young children and a wife, then you have deprived them of your protection to make a statement that was not yours to make at that time.
Most situations are not black and white, but you can discern from Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions where the lines are that pertain you and your family. For example, if the public school is sexualizing your children, then you resist and oppose by removing your kids from the deviant environment. If your employer requires you to swear an oath to anything that opposes God, then it's time to find new employment. If your pastor is teaching strange doctrines, then it's time to find a new church. If your friend has a habit of getting baked, then it's time to find help for him and avoid situations where he feels compelled to alter his state of consciousness.
Ultimately, this is what our pastors for for. Take your concerns to him and he will help you to discern what is Godly and appropriate for you and your family.
As a starter, I found this helpful. pt 1/3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO_263DsnT0
Yes, excellent from Pr. Ramirez.
The error is insisting that the only kinds of Trump criticism comes in the form of TDS or Never-Trumpism, two ideologies I reject in toto.
The perpetuation of this error is insidious and pernicious: convincing yourself and your people that the only opposition you have is from wicked or insane people, or else weak-hearted, and that Trump and his company are unequivocally a net good for yourself and your people, leads to a massive vulnerability to group deception and taking of advantage and leading of marches down self-destructive paths.
Please can you articulate why the alternative to Trump was the better decision for Christians.
The second error is insisting that any discussion of Trump, or any criticism of Trump, means also endorsing Harris.
Framing all political discussion as a Red vs. Blue football match leaves everyone's minds captive to the regime we oppose.
I can call voting Harris a sin while still raising the question of whether the Trumpian movement was a Trojan horse. I don't care whether anyone voted for Trump or not: he was going to be selected either way, just as Biden was selected over the duly elected Trump in 2020.
It's funny because the levels and lengths of Christians making apologies for abortionism and Zionism would not have been allowed in the recent past. It used to be cool to point out weaknesses in these areas. Now it's a sign of TDS apparently.
Trump may as well be a more ethical politician than anyone else. That's not why he's suspect. He's generally suspect for the exact opposite reason those with TDS or Never-Trumpism state. Never-Trumpers are usually Zionists themselves, and usually weak on anti-abortionism themselves.
"The lying media doesn't like Trump. Therefore I like Trump"
"The mainstream media doesn't like podcasts. Therefore all podcasters are friends of mine."
"Trump says mean things about my enemies. He must be my friend. He would never lie to me."
And it's not Trump alone. "Trump" can be any representation of the new right in the post-2016 era.
Old media is already invested in new media. The mess we see is a food fight between classmates. Everyone gets a paycheck, but not all in the same way.
Has anyone seriously listened to Rogan? He's acclaimed as non-lying, non-monied, new media. That claim is ridiculous. Listen to what he says, the lines he hammers, the flow of the programming. He's a government spokesman, as is Musk.
Okay, so if my understanding is correct, you chose to sit out the election because both parties are under Zionist control?
Not in the slightest. The Zionism stuff mainly got highlighted after the election. Frankly I was a little surprised by it; I wasn't expecting the blatancy.
Trump's COVID endorsement was all I needed; the rest is gravy. But I've been dismissed since then by all my Christian friends. Believe the story given. We Christians see through the lies; we discern all truth. Trump will fix it, and you're the problem if you don't get on this train.
So you sat out the election because neither candidate / party / platform met your requirements perfectly? COVID-19 was your single issue decider?
Why is this about the election anyway? Is that what the original article was about? I thought you were just talking about the political domain in general: "Christians are far too eager to give up the public square for the sake of virtue signalling and unattainable perfection."
If you don't vote Trump, you're morally weak, or dangerous, because virtue-signaling.
Why is this about the election? Was Biden duly elected? Was Harris a serious candidate? Were you afraid she was going to be allowed to be chosen?
Can Christians engage the public square in more ways than voting silently?
Do I have to vote Trump and endorse him every waking moment and defend him from all mean comments just to work with other sinners like me to accomplish political goals? Who says not voting Trump means that I must sit in my basement doing nothing, or that it means that all political compromise is impossible or evil?
https://omny.fm/shows/fort-waynes-morning-news/thanksgiving-talk-backs-day-3-lgbtq-hate
My case in point. This podcast is a very small, local Fort Wayne outlet, owned by a very opaque system of corporations. Producer Federated Media also carries Mark Levin, but otherwise hosts small potatoes, and effectively works local ad money. But her programming, and probably most of the money, is coming from the top. She's full-on "never fear libtard, Trump is actually a liberal with a right-wing paint-job. I'm a Christian myself, but I support this good-looking man." All 3 (thought there was 4?) of the short segments take this tack. I never heard of this podcast before a week ago. I thought it was cool to hear a non-leftist local outlet. But the conservatism is all schtick. Antichristian money will pay Christians anything to market the politically correct Red vs. Blue story. Trumpianism is the new Red. The complainers are just worried about their income, but given enough time they'll be settled, in or out of the public eye.
https://issuesetc.org/2024/11/19/responding-to-listener-email-and-the-issues-etc-comment-line-11-19-24-3241/
Never thought we'd be in the universe where Todd Wilken converts from playing with Never-Trumperism to a standard Trump apologia.
He's the target audience. He's moved exactly where he was supposed to go. It was an 8-year (and beyond) program.
He has all the right crises of conscience. But he's come out on the right side, because he's not stupid. You can't run weak ops on actual Christians. It takes a very very long time.
Do you see what's happening? Never-Trumpism was largely an elite aesthetic. It's trickled down now, but at first it was a sign of weak leadership / cowardice, something the laypeople can't really be judged on. The lay momentum was all Trump. This was fine and good, since the novelty made it impossible to know what was up unless you had done prior research or were paying attention to where he and others came from. And Trump supporters being attacked was wrong. Never-Trump attacks on Trump were a proxy for attacks on Trump supporters, who were quite Christian. (But then Trump got a lot of them put in jail in payment for their support in '21.) '16 to '24 was a deliberate revealing and unravelling. So much more has been made visible. After Trump pacified and placated opposition to COVID, most of the op has been let out. It's now politically correct to declare the media "lying and crazy" and Fauci a "monster". All true statements that were nonetheless true before it was sanctioned rhetoric. But now that so much is laid out on the table for even the laypeople to see, some people have had some room to think about Trump as a whole. Some things still haven't gone away, and ever since Never-Trumpism became popular, the laypeople are now more frequently partaking of its ideas. And on cue, the Trump train is ready to roll right over them. The elites can take care of themselves; the laypeople cannot (they need a shepherd, a real one).
What the right spent years calling the left, they are now themselves. (As it pertains to the sanctioned parties.) The left was doing it (lying, etc.) then by commission. The right now by omission. To state as news something that was exposed 8 years ago is itself the real disengagement.
No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the party,
A part of the main.
If a vote be washed away by the sea,
America is the less.
As well as if a state were.
As well as if a county of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's abstention diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the train rolls,
It rolls for thee.
The choice of the Trump-Bible-Church photo is ironic, considering that was the day he sold his own people to the feds. It's politically correct to point out the agent provocateurs, but if Trump was not in the know and cared about his own fans, he'd have hit that line hard and never stopped. Trump fans take so many bullets for their man, rather than the other way around. (Just a scratch...)
https://nitter.poast.org/mtracey/status/1858565299790115305
Kayfabe all the way down.
https://nitter.poast.org/mtracey/status/1858976606892814455
I wonder how many people in that town voted for Trump hehe
The other thing usually not mentioned is how the American people themselves are abortionist. They voted more for abortion than for Trump. Don't need to convince Americans to "lower their standards" when they already seem convinced!
Trump led pro-life movement into a climax with no payoff. The fever pitch of removing Roe v. Wade after 50 years followed with a throwing to the wolves. It's not the laxity, it's the deception and manipulation. Vance too. Rogan (media) too. It was settled. Trump spoke at March for Life for first President appearance ever, cancelled the next one with COVID, knocked Roe, then declared the issue done and final forever: STATES ONLY. When this is the one issue of all that would most fit federal action. It's a show to lead and string along. Rhetorical game. Kayfabe, with the most interesting heels and faces of all.